Shakespeare and her teammates after the
4x200 relay final at the 2000 Summer Olympics
credit: canoe.ca
After two weeks of Olympics and the number of human interest stories featured, we mere mortals are reminded how physically and emotionally exhausting and exhilarating it can be to reach the Olympia apex and to compete on that stage - win or lose. This episode's guest couldn't have said it any better: "I just feel so much compassion for what those athletes go through. Podium or not. It is the culmination of years of blood sweat and tears. It takes so much courage to walk in and walk out of the Games and to allow yourself to be proud even if the results weren't what you'd hoped for." And she would know.
In this conversation, we hear from long-time pal and two-time Olympic Canadian Swimmer, Shannon Shakespeare. She sheds light on her lessons learned - to beware of shortcuts and to keep an eye on your passion tank - for a run-up to the Olympics and then her winding path into a fulfilling "retired" life being a tax attorney, finding love, building community and nurturing compassion.
Follow along as Shannon shares comical and poignant anecdotes that bring life to her Olympic "human interest" story that takes us beyond her swimming glory days. Our conversation spans from her time as a child pianist to her love for her Grandma Mary to her intellectual crush on Ruth Bader Ginsberg and athletic crush on Michael Phelps.
Personal takeaway
From Shannon's story about her greatest athletic accomplishment -
Be prepared #1 and #2 Share your goals with people, especially your family and people closest to you like Shannon did with her parents at 8. That probably informed them to support her when she wanted to commit more to an intense swimming regime around 12.
If you don't reach them, then no one will pay any mind because they probably have bigger fish to fry. If you put them down, it makes it real and one degree more likely that you will realize them. I'm generally shy about doing these things because it makes me feel vulnerable and exposes me to look and feel like a failure if I don't reach a stated goal. So in short, embrace inspiration, put fear of vulnerability aside and be brave. Olympians put their dreams on the line in front of the whole world every four years. My stakes certainly aren’t that high.
Transcript: Shannon Shakespeare
Steph: Welcome Shannon. Thanks for joining us. I appreciate you taking some time with me today. I guess to get started could you introduce yourself and give a few bullets on your athletic resume?
Shannon: Sure. Thanks Steph. It's good to chat with you. Shannon Shakespeare age 40. Big four o.
Athletic resume seems like I have to draw on like ancient history at this point, but I guess
Canadian National Champion and
Two-time Olympian in swimming 1996 and 2000 and
had the honor of being the co-captain of the swim team at the 2000 Olympics which was a great honor.
Then NCAA all American and Big Ten champion in swimming for University of Michigan
Steph: Wow well! That is an even longer resume than I remember, but yeah, just brings so much experience and in a varied experience from some of the other folks that we've talked to so far having spoken to two field hockey players so excited to get some variation in the athletic endeavor. Great! What was your experience with sports growing up?
What sports did you play? You know what sports were you into and did you fall in love with swimming?
Shannon: Sure my parents were sort of of the mindset I think with respect to my older brother and I and our involvement in sports and other activities their approach was: put us in everything, see what we like, see what we were good at. So from the sports side of things um, we, my dad had been a swimmer, water polo player growing up so he naturally had my brother, and I in swimming at a pretty early age, but in addition to that. I was on, you know, Soccer teams and mostly Soccer, Cross Country, Gymnastics as a really little kid. Figure skating some of that as when I look back at that now is pretty hilarious. Actually as I'm listing those out, mostly in, aside from Soccer, were mostly in individual sports. I guess my other team experience would have been in Ringette, which is sort of a variation of women's hockey. that is played in Europe and Canada. So sort of a bunch of different sports, we got thrown into by the time. I was I guess 12. I was sort of naturally most talented at swimming enjoyed it and was performing really well at a high level at a young age, and so it's one of those sports that doesn't allow for a lot of time to dedicate to other things once you once you sort of committed into a swimming program, so by the time I was 12, 13. I sort of let every other sport fall by the wayside which was sort of sad because I really did enjoy Soccer and Ringette especially the team aspect of those two activities that sort of let those fall off and dedicated my time to swimming, which meant you know. guess ten practices a week morning and night and then one or two on the weekend so it was a heavy commitment at a really young age, and and if I think specifically back on the the swimming experience. I would have had to use a word. I would probably just call it intense, um, intense commitment tends to travel and intense amount of of physical exertion as a pretty young person so.
And I think that's probably my reflection on my early involvement in sports.
Steph: That's yeah, very helpful to know and wow impressive to have committed to something so intensely so early. Yeah, I may have come back to that a little bit later, but in also appreciate your insight around individual versus team sport.
I find that to be pretty intriguing the individual athletes versus team athletes. What's your involvement in athletics now?
Shannon "part-time running" in a 2017 Ragnar Relay - a relay of 180 miles run by 12 people.
Shannon: Part time runner running as what I and did it to stay fit. I swim in the Summers and now live in Seattle and have the ability to swim outside as opposed to my years in the midwest where it was a little more challenging to do that. So from a personal fitness perspective running and swimming and then just overall involvement with sports was probably could be described as enthusiastic spectator of Michigan Athletics and Olympic Sport Events.
Steph: Nice. That's always a funny one. I appreciate part-time runner, the honesty there. Certainly more than I can claim at this point.
Since you've retired from Swimming, and are a part time runner, where have you taken your talents? What are you up to these days?
Shannon: I mean so after I retired and we can talk about this little more probably later, but you know I was at the stage in my career with swimming that. I was Fortunate enough to do to end my career at the 2000 Olympics and that that coincided with my senior year at Michigan so from the timing perspective was it kind of had a nice bow on it.
There was a natural kind of I guess progression in the swimming career, and I emotionally and mentally and physically it was ready to retire so all those things sort of aligned nicely for me to end my swimming career and so post that retirement in 2000, I just sort of was going through the natural struggles of like trying to find what I wanted to do for my career. Had a couple of just different experiences in public relations and marketing and parks & recreation as an acquatics director, trying to like sort stay involved with sports. Wasn't really sure if that was the path that I wanted. Then ultimately decided to go back to school, so I went and got my law degree.
Career now as a tax attorney in-house Amazon.
Steph: Excellent. and now I would love I would love to come back to you know that journey from retirement to tax attorney a little bit later, so we'll put a pin in that one.
Shannon: You mean it doesn't make perfect sense.
Steph: Well it does to me because I'm a little bit closer to it, but to connect the dots for those who may take the time to listen to this.
Shannon: Oh boy.
Steph: Next we'll do a little lightning round or rapid fire. That being said. what is your present State of Mind? It being 10:13 your time,
Shannon: so it's yeah, you know yeah from I would say pretty pretty calm for a Monday Monday morning. Normally. I have Monday scrambles. It's currently com this guy has blue in Seattle so in the middle of winter, so that's always a peaceful thing.
Steph: Uggh beautiful. Alright what's your greatest passion?
Shannon: Well, I would say probably community and and and the outdoors Mountains and skiing.
Shannon: What are you is the love of your life?
Shannon: Ah, that would be my wife, Laura.
Steph: Excellent. What connects you to that passion or how would you describe your connection?
Shannon: I would say I guess that passion developed through childhood childhood experiences. The outdoors. I'm from Canada, so I feel I feel like it's in my blood to be connected with with the outdoors, and then you know just on the community side of things having family and friends around was something that I grew up with that. It's something that's become very important to me as an older person and continues to be very important in terms of my own happiness is just feeling connectedness to community in the sense of my immediate family and friends and to some extent my neighbors.
Steph: Cool. Who are the most influential people in your life? Yes assuming Laura is one of those. Are there other people that you would categorize and in that way?
Shannon: Yeah, you know if I think about you know what influences and shapes my sort of past, present, future from a big picture perspective but then you know tying in influence into the execution of my day to day, I would have to say the most influential people would have to be my parents, Laura and the work colleagues that I'm close with here.
Steph: So you explained a little bit that you know those are people who influenced your past present, and you know your day-to-day. Is there any other explanation in addition to that that that would explain why those are the most important people to you? Or the most influential?
Shannon: I think I think I would and I spent some time thinking about that question before you asked it. Yeah, I think it just gets to you know how is my decision making shaped you know broadly and like tactically. And really you know that is influenced by the you know the people who are closest with and and like from the work perspective right like a huge part of my everyday execution. And and so you know that is obviously influenced by the people that are surround myself with on a daily basis, and you know just connectedness that I have to my career and being successful in my career.
That's sort of why I attribute the influence to my work colleagues from the also with the day to day you know my wife and the decision making around you know my family. She's obviously a big influence there.Then you know I always as I approach decision making and undertake new endeavors I'm always sort of thinking about my parents and how I was raised and you know what they think about the things that I that I do. Which seems sort of odd as a 40 year old to say that. But you know I'm close enough to with them still that their sort of understanding and acceptance of the things that I do and where possible you know approval, that is still important to me. And so I definitely think they continue to be influential on my life to a great extent.
Steph: Yeah you segue this and I'll insert a quick comment. Having known you for what almost twenty years at this point the something that you bring up about you know thinking about how your parents would evaluate decisions that you're making and something that's always impressed me about you. Is that in there aren't a lot of people that can say this, but is that you're very much the same person in in almost every scenario.
You know I think the only time that I've seen you in a vastly different mindset or kind of or heard a tone that was unfamiliar to me is kind of when you were getting competitive. And even then, it's still you know it's not a different person, but just the realness that you your various you're a very similar person with your parents that you are you know when you're with your your friends from Chicago, then you are when you're with your friends from Michigan, and who you are when I've seen you with your colleagues, and I think that's pretty neat. And probably a large credit to how you're able to build community because so many times people have the they feel like they have these different worlds, and they can't really mix them.
That's something that I think that you've always done so fluently it's really neat to see. Your comment about thinking about your parents when you're making decisions kind of harkened to that for me. I think that segues nicely. What's that?
Shannon: Thanks for that.
Steph: Yeah, of course! I think it's segues into the next question nicely. What's your, what would you say your most notable characteristic is? And I think this came out a little bit during the what is that? It's not the eulogy at your wedding with the homily.
Shannon: The eulogy! That's interesting. Yeah, I think I think probably. Probably split right. I think most people that know me would would say that I'm pretty game for things. I don't know how you sort of capture that in one more, but but I like to call it "being game", and the other is compassion. I try to bring compassion to my relationships. You know my work environment, my engagement with strangers. I always and I think I've gotten better at it with age. Certainly haven't always been great at it, but you know I do try to always have that that lens of compassion in dealing with people in situations.
Steph: greatest fear?
Shannon: oh aging body and mind.
Steph: Wow that's a good one. greatest failure?
Shannon: Yeah, so I appreciate this post be quick fire rapid fire answers here, but I thought a lot about this one failure is a kind of a tough word right? So subjective and it seems so harsh, but if I if I think about my first really really memorable failure that I had stayed with me for a bunch of years since I was about eight. I would say that it is a tad my piano. Concert as an eight-year-old.
I basically was ill prepared in front of fairly large audience including my mom. And basically sat there unable to play the pieces I was supposed to be prepared to play and it was hugely embarrassing for me, and my mom. And was the last actual time like that was like the end like but the plug was pulled on my piano career at that point. But I think the broader lesson there for me was just you know it was it was the first time that I recall just just not being able to execute an in any fashion right. And like sort of a trickle down effect on like the people that you know my teacher, people in the audience, the embarrassment for me, my mom's embarrassment for me, and maybe of me at that point.
But just that's kind of the first impactful quote-unquote failure that I can recall on and it's sort of something that I think about from time to time.
Steph: Yeah, imagining little Shan as a Pianist. Also, pretty comedic but.
Shannon: Exactly as I figured you might appreciate that if we want to look to later years. You know just like a sort of black and white pass/fail type. You know sale success type definition. I think I would have to look to the first time I took the bar exam in New York and didn't pass it. And you know I don't unfortunate enough to like not have a lot of experiences with like that type of like you know hardline pass fail and landing on the fail side of things. That was a humbling experience for me, and you know I had to really draw into how I was going to get you know get a different result you know on the next try. So if we're looking to later years, I'll point to that one as a pretty great failure in my books.
Steph: Yeah, thanks for sharing that what might you cite as the greatest obstacle you faced?
Shannon: Yeah, let's park let's park that one though and really struggled to try and draw on, on what my response to that one would be.
Steph: okay? Most important lesson that you learned in the pool, or you know call it the arena because it may not necessarily been the pool and since you used a couple of different sports in there that have different venues. We got to kind of make it generic so most important lesson that you've learned in the pool or in the arena?
Shannon: Yep, I think. Swimming is an extremely honest sport. It's you know your how you perform is pretty much directly related to how much work you put in and your success is measured by you know a time on the board and the order in which your hand hits the wall. And so it's pretty pretty like harsh in that way, and so I think the most important lesson coming out of that sport experience is that you no shortcuts are sparse. If you do take a shortcut, it's got to be extremely calculated and If I think about things related to swimming being an individual sport in particular you know defining individuality within the context of the team and how to sort of balance you know selfish needs in connection with the individual sport with selfLESS contributions that you need to make to the team.
Steph: I think you're really hitting the nail on the head and that discrepancy that that I guess I've observed with individual sport athletes and team sport athletes that maybe another one that we want to put a pin in but certainly move on most important lesson that you've learned out of the pool or out of the Arena?
Shannon: You know I say they're probably pretty similar right I think that's that's one of the great blessings that you have in sort of transitioning from an athletic I'll use quotations around life to a non-athletic life, or life after you know the intense participation in whatever your sport was is that you know you're able to like sort of translate those lessons into the "outside of the Arena" life that you live and so I actually think my my answer to that is is the same right. Shortcuts are you know something that need to be strongly considered, and you know how do you how do you contribute as an individual with the sort of greater objective in mind whether that's within a relationship within family within community involvement or even within you know your career.
Steph: Who would you consider your heroes if they're different from the most influential people in your life, but?
Shannon: Yeah, I said it took that one as like you know I'll take that question as as if it were related to as simple as being you know worked hero and non sports hero, and I will point to Michael Phelps, who is just so remarkable as an athlete.
It's hard for me not to identify him as a hero to me and then Ruth Bader Ginsburg - the Supreme Court Justice.
Steph: And and how how would you categorize you know those the respect that you have for them? You know what Michael Phelps is kind of obvious, but I would assume that it's it's beyond just the superficial.
He's the most decorated Olympian of all time and Ruth Bader Ginsburg is just you know she she has her own OG handle.
Shannon: Yeah, I mean she's just so ahead of her time right. Just such a brilliant legal mind. Strong. You know we're like in this crazy period of time now we're like we're reflecting on you know women's rights and and like sort of the disparity in sort of equity between women and men. And I think the like legal field wouldn't be an exception to what we're seeing in you know other industries and across other sort of areas of life. But you know she's in her eighties now continues to be this sharp legal mind and presence on the court. And and you know has never sort of like if you look at her for history and her sort of presence over time on the court. You know she's been sort of this unwavering Progressive mind in a time that like you know it still continues to be challenged in that way at least within the United States, so I just think she's incredibly brave, super smart and and very witty and hilarious to read about and watch when like she does provide interviews and stuff. It's just like if she's just this tiny little woman with such a huge presence. It's just been really fun to learn more about her.
Steph: And Phelps how would you dimensionalize that your respect for for him as a hero?
Shannon: Um I just you know I mean having this the you know same being a swimmer and having that perspective on like what he's been able to accomplish. And he's just an absolutely athletic genius who perfected his craft over and over again. And in like the his accomplishments you know in the pool or just like it's it's just mind-blowing actually. You know I I always like when I go on my rants about Michael Phelps, which I do a lot because I appreciate that you know there's some personal things that have happened you know in his life that have drawn criticism, but you know I also would say that he's overcome those pretty impressively as well.
But like I always when I'm on Michael Phelps rant will like talk about the you know his race in the 2008 Olympics in the 200 fly when he lost his goggles in the final off the blocks. You know, that's like a swimmer's worst nightmares having your goggles fall off or fill with water because you can't see any immediately goes into and this is an Olympic final right like. Immediately goes into counting his strokes because he knows exactly how many strokes it takes him to get you know from one end to the other. Um and on each of those legs right. So it for length 50 meters each, and he you know didn't wasn't able to use his eyes, so he just got into the calmness of his sort of athletic experience and Trust of himself. And you know wins the gold medal. And it's just like that to me is like is he's just so so so impressive at the swimmer, and his I really just sort of define him as being a genius in his craft.
Steph: I can't wait to hear one of those rents personally, and I definitely just got the chills I'd never heard that story, so thanks.
Steph: Yeah, how do you define vulnerability?
Shannon: Uh wow. I would say. Vulnerability defined I think is defined you know by being exposed by virtue of taking risks.
Steph: What do you think the most vulnerable thing that you've done athletically might be?
Shannon: You know I probably say between my Junior and Senior year, I was struggling with a lack of passion for something anymore. I was tired and wasn't sure I wanted to continue and needed to like figure out how what I was going to how I could sort of redefine that passion for my senior year and like going into an Olympic year where one of my goals was to qualify again for the Olympics, but like how do you do that and rationalize that in your mind when you're just not feeling it in your heart.
And so I sort of was really open about that with my coaches and teammates and family and decided to take that whole summer off swimming. I didn't compete at the national level. I like totally stepped away. Swam a couple times a week just from fairly informally in my hometown of Winnipeg and played Ultimate Frisbee and did some stuff to like make myself feel good again, and still stay in physical shape maybe not swimming physical shape, but you know I remained fit and got my head to the place where I needed it to be to come back and perform in my senior year. And so you know as an athlete and that's like a tough thing to sort of admit to yourself, and then to say that others like "I'm really like not feeling this right now. Don't really want to do it. Don't really have the passion for it, and I'm going to take a step away here and try and get that back." You know when you I think the most vulnerable part of that is A. Admitting it and then B. Having to come back to it after and stand by that decision you know in the first place. And then try and put it all on the line again and perform at the level that you were or better before.
Steph: Yeah. Wow.
What do you think the most vulnerable thing that you've done personally is?
Shannon: I think. You know I'd have to say.
I think there's there's been a few things that I think about but probably all of them really coming out of the closet. And just you know accepting my sexuality and being open about that and living a life um that's honest and true to that that part of who I am. And you know and just engaging openly in that way in workplace with friends with family. And I think that's you know there's a huge huge aspect or huge component of vulnerability involved in that that process generally.
Steph: How do you define everyday courage or bravery?
Shannon: Oh, man these days. Just like you know getting up and getting out, and you know I think it's a it's a weird time to be alive actually with like the current political environments. It feels challenging honestly on a day-to-day basis. Um and and like we talked about a little bit earlier, just like being a woman in this world right now right. It's like I think it's time to sort of now more than ever just sort of like be be assertive in the world, in the workplace.
I I'm in a in a work environment that is, fortunately for me, pretty pretty well-balanced in terms of diversity. And but you know you have to like it's also super competitive environment, so you know having the courage to sort of stand up, and you know take positions on things you know. In my par- specific environment like taking a position and arguing that it's the right one and having the confidence to stand by it behind you know your thoughts and positions like just requires bravery every day.
Steph: Who do you think the most courageous or bravest person that you know is?
Shannon: I'd have to, I'd have to say that was my my mom's mom, my Grandma Mary who passed away this past year. I think as I got to know her her. I think you know I've always known her stories. She was a war bride, moved to Canada after a pretty hard hard life in Britain, but met my grandfather who was a soldier for Canada in World War Two. And she moved moved with him back to Canada after the war and sort of had a difficult life, personal life and financial life. And just was like the most positive and optimistic and hopeful person you know that was in our family for sure.
And so as she got older and the past few years and was getting sick, I learned her story in a lot more detail. And and I think it resonated with me differently as I'm you know older, and you know I look back at her life, and I it's just everything she did was courageous and and you know unapologetic in some ways. And so I think I have to answer that question it would be be her.
Steph: What a great way to honor her too. Sorry about her passing. What's the bravest thing that you've done?
Shannon: Hmm if it's different from you know the most courageous thing that you've done or the most vulnerable thing that you've done. Yeah, those things all sort of you know in my mind at least in connection with my experience with all sort of like or somewhat interwoven. Um I think. Bravest thing I've done. It's so so drastic Steph.
Steph: Yes. Well, I think that. What... Over the last couple years, and I think that you allude to this a little bit in your response to you know how do you define everyday courage and bravery. I think that we in the way that you've described Grandma Mary if you know it's it's a body of work. It's a body of your character of you know how you've, how you've been, what you've done.
You know is it is it showing up every day? Or you know is it showing up every day so that when you have to step on you know like many people would, knowing your story, think that stepping on to the starting blocks of the Olympics would be the bravest thing that you've done because it's so visible. And you know your while you've trained for years to get there, but I mean just the anx-, nerves and anxiety to imagine what that might feel like yeah, there's just so many different ways to answer it.
Shannon: Yeah, I mean. That's interesting that you bring up the... It a sort of become desensitized to my Olympic experience over the years, and it's really interesting that you bring that up because I was just watching the Olympic trials World Figure Skating Championships over the weekend. And as these women were taken the ice, I was reflecting on what they're feeling and kind of like being able to empathize and relate exactly to what you know the stress and the pressure that they were feeling in that moment and that you know as it related to my experiences 100 years ago.
But I guess with that being said, I would say and drawing on on those thoughts, I would say probably the bravest thing I did was you know I had just talked about the fact that I was losing the passion for swimming and and trying to take actions to like get that back so that I could so I could finish my career at Michigan and then hopefully qualify for the Olympics in 2000.
I think making that cognizant decision in 2000 to continue swimming after the collegiate season was over and to try and qualify for the Olympics one more time before I finished my career and kind of knowing that that was like my ultimate goal and knowing that I had had some compromised passion right for the sport. Because it's it's it's just you know that's one thing that you know as an athlete, and you know this. Like you can't perform at your absolute best if you're if you're not passionate about. It's just not possible. And so I think kind of knowing that that passion had been compromised and still making that decision to go forward and like go to Olympic trials and train for it and try and make the team and ultimately make the team and go swim at the Olympics like that's probably the bravest thing that I can think of that I've done at this point.
Steph: It's a good one! When are you at your happiest?
Shannon's dad roasting/toasting her at her 2017 wedding to "the love of her life", Laura.
Shannon: Oh man! Um.
Steph: I mean it could have been you look pretty happy at the dinner after your wedding.
Shannon: Yeah, you know I like I can I just feel like really lucky when I read that question is because I you know I live in a place where if I'm out if I'm like by the water with mountains in view and air is fresh, and I'm with either Laura or friends or family like that's my happiest right. It's just being with people that I love outside in nature. You know where you're reminded of like how small you are. That's when I'm at my happiest.
Steph: Okay, I've got a devi- deviation on the questions for you. And it's kind of related. I think you found yourself in a almost a utopia of sorts with your professional life taking you to a place like Seattle, and you know I heard you talk about tax law. Which is funny to say that the amount of passion that you bring to that other people think that it's unfathomable, but I actually
Shannon: I call it the conversation Ender.
Steph: I think that's about right. Yeah, kind of like the neck tat is the job stopper.
Shannon: That's right.
Steph: So that being said kind of you getting to work for a company that you the environment that it's putting you in, with people that you respect and that challenge you and you also get to live a life in an in a place that you love, that inspires you and energizes you with people that you love. Do you live to work or work to live?
Shannon: Such a great question. You know with all these lotto tickets. I've been buying lately. I'm like oh, man. We were talking about this weekend like oh if you won, the lottery like you one of my friends was like you'd like you would you wouldn't go to work on Monday you quit right?
I was like well I probably would call in sick on Monday, but I don't think I would quit. And so that that's like ... I love my life outside of work, but I really also. I define myself you know by enjoying what I do at work as well, and so I you know I would say if I have to answer that question I work to live, but it's not as though work always feels like work.
Steph: Yeah. Alright, so, I'll go back to the prescribed questions. Greatest accomplishment in the pool or the arena?
Shannon: Yeah qualifying for the Olympics in 1996.
Steph: And why that over 2000?
Shannon: So we have this we have this little letter that I wrote as part of a school exercise when I was in third grade, and it was like the first day of school and the teacher was like you know right like write a journal entry at like talks about yourself what you like to do and like who you are, about your family and like that kind of thing you know. And my parents still own it because it's absolutely hilarious for a bunch of reasons. But one of the things that I had said in there was um okay, I guess I was 11 because it was coming off of the 1988. I was even younger than that it was coming off the 1984 Olympics in LA. It was first time. I remember watching the Olympics because my brother was a super into it. There were a couple really good swimmers that won gold medals in that those Olympics. It was super memorable for me, and it was at a time where I was like you know getting into swimming. I guess I was 84 I was seven right seven or eight. And so I it was like super impactful that summer on how I was feeling about swimming and so one of the excerpts in that little journal entry that I wrote said you know "when I'm 18 years old, I'm gonna swim in the 1996 Olympics."
And so like this, it's interesting to think about what had been going on in my mind at that point just like I did the math. I figured out how old I would be. I figured out what would make sense in terms of my age as to when I might qualify for the Olympics. Like the whole thought process like behind that statement in that little journal entry was like really intriguing.
Steph: Very precise
Shannon: Yeah! Parents held on to it, and you know gave it to me after I qualified to Olympics in '96, but I would say that that was the most, the greatest accomplishment not because you know not because like you win a gold medal at Olympic trials, or you know I you know like I can't even say that swimming in the Olympics was greater than qualifying for the Olympics really because it was really a culmination of like me just accomplishing a goal that I set when I was really young. And and worked really hard for a bunch of years to get there and always kind of had that goal in mind. It was just what I wanted to do. And there were so many steps along the way to get there and the moment that you know my hand hit the wall, and I won the 100 freestyle to get me to the Olympics in 96 was like such a memorable moment that like I have to that has to be what I would consider the greatest accomplishment. It was just was a combination of like excitement and relief and pride and exhaustion, and you know it just like. Gosh what an awesome memory and then um and that's yeah, that's got to be the one.
Steph: Cool, OK greatest accomplishment outside of the pool or outside of the Arena.
Shannon: Ah, man. I'm pausing because. You know is it is it finding love? Is it is it related to career? But I think, I think my greatest accomplishment outside the pool I would have to say is just like being able to identify the things that are fulfilling to me. And that is sometimes feels like a really great accomplishment because it's really hard to sort of find that place in the world that you know where you feel like comfortable in your own skin and accepts the things that are good about yourself and the things that need improvement and you know just being able to like contribute to your career and your family and friends in a way, that's meaningful. So sort of that like all encompassed sense of peace about yourself.
Steph: That's great. Okay. Thank will be coming back to that too. If you could change one thing in your immediate community, what would it be?
Shannon: Oh man. How are you defining "immediate community" there?
Steph: And I guess in this case you know based on what you've said you know the people in your day-to-day or the people that are kind of in your 1° like closest ring of influence.
Shannon: Yeah um. I think probably like if I think about that as like you know my friends, you know my family, my my work colleagues. Like I think it would just be somehow being able to like alleviate stress. You know it's like we just have like limited time always and it I can say for myself like a lot of my time is not a lot, but oftentimes compromised by stress, and you know it just I guess if I could change one thing in my community it would be that.
Steph: Great. Principles that you live by our core values you mentioned compassion, bring your compassion to different contexts or circumstances. Is it is it that or there others as well?
Shannon: Yeah, I mean compassion is definitely a big one for reasons. I kind of cited above, but I like I think.
Yeah, one of the ones that I've been. I don't know how you sort of like tie this into what would be like a definable core value, but just having presence, and I think that does tie into compassion. And I like trying to be more aware of just when I give my time that I'm actually giving my time, and my head space to whoever it is that I'm with and even if that's just some times myself. Just like you know having presence of mind.
Steph: And do you do you think you're able to practice these on an everyday basis? I know part of it's you know being gentle with ourselves to kind of just let it go if we can't but you know do you think you're doing a good job, and how do you how do you tactically practice these things?
Shannon: Yeah, I mean I think it's like constantly reminding myself to like you know listen, be a good listener. Even at work right. It's like you there's a million things going on and you're trying to like balance priorities and and like do a good job, and there's never enough time to like feel like you're able to give a hundred percent to all things. But just trying to like close off close you know like turn off the back burner a little bit and just really hone in on the current discussion that you're having or what you're reading, how you're engaging. It is for me. It's like a some days I'm good at it. Some days I'm not, but I'm always trying to be aware of like my tone. In the sense of the compassion right like just my tone and body language and like I think part of being compassionate is like is engaging presently so I think those two things are connected. But yeah, it's constantly like you know I'm I'm constantly guilty of pulling out my phone when I'm at dinner or in a meeting or whatever. So like being aware of that action and whether it's really necessary in the moment.
Steph: So Shan, the name of the blog is "Rub Some Dirt Chronicles" and comes from the athletic cliche "to rub some dirt on it." Are you familiar with this cliche?
Shannon: Actually, not, so you know I'm a swimmer so what would be the equivalent?
Steph: Well, just just massage it out or walk it off.
Shannon: Like like pull up your socks and move on kind of.
Steph: Yeah Yeah something like that. It's it's a little bit. Yeah. I mean I guess it would be you know like "just put your head down and chase the line."
Okay, yeah, you know for all intensive purposes is like the way you visit if it like
Shannon: Is it like dry the tears off your goggle lens?
Steph: Yes. Yeah.
Shannon: And move on ya got it. Okay,
Steph: or you know your? you know in other terms. I guess the way that my sister explains it is "are you hurt, or are you injured?" You know if you say "hey coach, you know, I don't feel right today. Something's going on with my with my shoulder." and you don't really put a name on it, but they're like "are you hurt, or are you injured? Can you keep going? Do I need to know that I'm going you know to hurt you more if you keep moving or can you push through this?" 6r You know like that line of mental toughness.
Are you being mentally tough, or weak, or are you actually putting yourself in danger of harming yourself?
Shannon: Got it.
Steph: You know, I think that that's really like in very clear terms. I think that's the the question around this or the existential question of our experiences in competitive athletics. I mean we there's this premium, an ideal around you know that person's the most mentally tough person I've ever met and you know inherently that person's a champion. but you know when we're doing these things when we are pushing ourselves to become the best athletes that we can, to be the most mentally tough athletes that we can.
What are we, you know we're training to become resilient and some of that is to our own detriment and some of it's stuff that we're capable of then applying later on. And as we become resilient, or as we become gritty, I guess in the context of of your swimming career, what did resilience or grit mean to you? And you know in a juxtaposition, how does resilience or grit appear to you now and kind of a daily life? Because there it's different when it's acute. You know just put your head down and chase the line, or you know is it now an a in the context of being a tax lawyers it like hey just you're pulling up and all nighter. What is resilience and grit mean to you then and what is does it mean to you now?
Shannon: Yeah, I mean I think. Conceptually I struggle a little bit now like in retrospect with the whole concept of like put your head down and go on in some ways right because to Shelley's point around "are you hurt, or are you injured?" You know as an athlete? There's dependence on coaches who are asking you to telling you and guiding you along a training regime right and like that question around are you hurt or injured in the context of like trying to accomplish the goals set out for you in a practice for example by a coach. Like it I think that's a blurred line like I think I think you know when and you sort of alluded to this. Like I think you know there are times when people push through something that maybe they shouldn't right. That and that turns the hurt into injury for the wrong reason.
So I think you know I think there's a way that we can be smarter about about how we apply our grittiness. Right I think grit for me is is probably different now than how I defined it as an athlete in my athletic career, but you know like I agree that there are times you have to acknowledge discomfort in physical discomfort it as an athlete. And you have the opportunity to challenge your mind to get to get through it too like to continue on even when you don't think that you can and like and just kind of close yourself off to the or breathe through the physical discomfort. And like you know I think athletes that reach a certain level of success and even you know maybe even just athletes in general are just able to have that mental toughness to use your words to like to ask yourself, your body to physically do something that is really uncomfortable.
I think I think that at least in swimming that used to be you know "push yourself as hard as you can, to the point where you can't do it anymore and like and it really hurts, and maybe it ends up in injury, but hopefully doesn't end up in injury." As opposed to "okay, maybe there's a way to do this like, maybe we can work on like your your technique and the mechanics of your stroke to be more efficient, to be you know to like. Can we do this in a way that smarter right?" And I think like at least with swimming, I think that the sport has come a long way um in terms of designing technology to accomplish that. You're still you're still having athletes ask themselves to push themselves through you know physical discomfort, but you're sort of smarter about like how you do, how that's being defined by coaches and by the athletes themselves. So there's a recognition of "I'm hurt. I'm hurt in a way that's going to result in injury and therefore we need to change you know our approach in one way or the other."
So I think for me that the term "rub some dirt on it" or "put your head down and get through it" is muddy right? I think it's it can be dangerous, but you know that's like goes along with kind of the risk that we talked about earlier. It's just like you have to take those risks. Hopefully they're calculated and hopefully you don't end up in situations where people are injured. But you know I I think that's just conceptually is something that I struggle with a little bit. Maybe as I've gotten older.
To answer it in the context of like a career. Um you know I think grittiness is at least in my environment at Amazon where things are pretty, things move pretty quickly. There are a lot of really smart people with different views about how things should you know should be approached or executed. I think grittiness in that environment for me is to ensure that I'm like super well-prepared and in that well-preparedness, I'm able to you know uh speak intelligently about a particular issue, have an approach, have a recommendation and and dig my heels and where I think I need to if someone's pushing back. And they're just there's a lot of pushback in this environment and so, but you know it's sort of like everyone here has a little bit of that like that "edge".
I'll call it "edge" instead of "grit" to like you know be pretty forceful and assertive about what you're thinking and um and your approach to things. So I don't know if that really clearly answers your questions, but that's sort of my like stream-of-consciousness on that question.
Steph: Yeah, no, I think if I think it totally makes sense and I do want to dig a little bit deeper into you know your experiences of resilience.
I think the example you share with us earlier around like there's not there's in my passion tank, we're on empty. And so there's only so much you know performance that that we can, you know there's only certain level performance that we can reach. That that I think is to me I guess resilience and "grit".
There's two you know two ways to think about it. There's the mental the mental and physical, which is you know how I feel like we are trained in sports. But then there's the emotional and the emotional aspect of it does not does not really get addressed in sports. You know that your challenge of "my passion is gone".
I don't know at least I think when we were competing the emotional side was not something that we paid a lot of attention to. It's not to say that you know we it wasn't wasn't trained, or it was neglected. It's just I think that we were more focused on training the body and the the mind so to speak than it was too kind of fill the soul. When we talk about passion, I think that's more of that like I feel fulfilled and I feel like this is the purpose or the kind of the direction that I feel committed emotionally to pursue.
Shannon: Uh huh.
Steph: You know that that example to me is a really good one of resilience in then kind of thinking about what you learned from that you know have there been circumstances in your personal or professional life where you've been like you know I don't. Maybe maybe it's a you know I don't want to put words in your mouth here, but it's the maybe that transition from you know Aquatics director to going to law school. Of you know, I just "Here I am. I don't know that this is the path, but I need more information and this is this is another path to pursue to get more information."
To find you know, can I find a passion professionally? Or did you feel the passion for Aquatics professionally in then you left that to do you know a legal career because this was you know your passion was to argue so to speak? You know what how did you use the lessons that you learned in resilience to say through athletics to find a passion personally?
Shannon: Yeah, and I think if I answer that in the context of my career. I think probably the most analogous would be deciding to leave like client service Private Practice of like of law right to go in-house and work in-house as an adviser, which is what I did when I left PWC to come to Amazon in Seattle. And like, it was pretty much the same feeling of you know I'd been started with a law firm in New York was there for three years moved on to an accounting firm. Same environment in the sense that you know you've got a bunch of different clients, you're trying to help you know them achieve their you know their goals and your advising them in that regard. And you know and there's like a sales component of it right because you're trying to build a book of business, and there's sort of like just you know the profile of that client service-related role as a lawyer. And you know and as I sort of gained experience and moved along that path, I became less and less happy. I, you know, I was feeling the stresses around what the next steps would be in that environment, which is you know you decide whether or not you want to try and make partner for example, where the stresses like continue to sort of elevate. And and I was feeling like a really, I was feeling really constricted on the personal side. I felt like my the further I was getting along in my career and the closer I was getting to like sort of that partner path was just like correlating to like less time to myself, less time to give to my relationships.
And so I like as soon as that started happening, I was losing the passion for what I was doing with work and to all the way to the extent of like I really, really disliked it. And it was like becoming you know I was getting the Sunday Blues on like Saturday afternoon kind of situation um and and you know that same type of depletion where you're like, I really this is like not not making me feel good and like I don't, like this isn't really what I want to do. And so you know having to evaluate what the next steps might be and in trying to like make that decision without really knowing whether you are, it was going to improve or remedy. And and fortunately for me the the like decision to leave client service and go in-house was the solution to that and am able to like focus on the aspects of the job that I really enjoyed before which was you know research and writing and arguing to your point and not sort of having some of the peripheral stuff and stressors that was like taking away the passion in the former environment.
So you know I think having the courage. You know, and yeah, you know to your point around resilience to like sort of reach the bottom of the bucket and feel depleted and and to be able to and at that point just say you know "what do I need to do to fix this" and "I'm gonna I'm going to dedicate myself to improving the scenario" instead of maintaining status quo where I'm kind of getting more miserable as the days go by. So I think Athletics is really good and in drawing out patience. You know where you may not think you have it is just you know and obviously this wasn't like physical discomfort, but it was emotional discomfort and like discomfort in the progression of my career, which is important to me.
Just having the patience, but I think I learned through being a resilient athlete to say you know what like this situation kind of sucks right now. I'm not super fulfilled or feeling really great about this, but I have the the ability and you know and wherewithal to evaluate it and figure out how to make it better and just to be in tune with what that looks like and to ride it out.
And so I do think there is a connection there between the experiences as an athlete and then you know and then how I sort of managed that equivalent scenario and my my career.